Author Topic: east and west  (Read 1267 times)

MarasAndBuddhas

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Re: east and west
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2020, 08:59:07 PM »
you seem like a very calm and non-egotistical buddhist
When thoughts arise, then do all things arise. When thoughts vanish, then do all things vanish.

MarasAndBuddhas

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Re: east and west
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2020, 11:37:04 PM »
i'm glad you are learning about rural america, i

You presume too much.  I don't live in a rural area.

Quote
yet i've found that people in cities are just as prejudicial and suspicious towards strangers, so I don't know how I would work that out other than being perfect,


It really doesn't make any sense to me if you are telling me not to try to be perfect if you are doing the typical thing that people do: you impose double standards of communication. For instance, i wasn't calling anyone a redneck, i just assumed you were because you made a GROSS GENERALIZATION about "the people where you live". I shouldn't be the only person who has to be careful about what they assume about other people, %^&*ing practice what you preach, i'm tired of everyone being a total hypocrite.

You can't be perfect.  Don't try.

Trungpa Rinpoche once said that Buddhism was about becoming a genuine human being.  That doesn't not include being "perfect", whatever that means.


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so I don't know how I would work that out in the long run without tremendous suffering.

If you try to become something that's impossible to achieve, I guarantee you will suffer for it.
When thoughts arise, then do all things arise. When thoughts vanish, then do all things vanish.

Avisitor

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Re: east and west
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2021, 01:25:52 AM »
I find very questionable the idea that "attachment leads to suffering", so am I supposed to believe an attachment believe an infant and a mother always without a doubt leads to suffering? Seems like a lot of people don't want to question ancient religious ideas. But what would buddhism be if they did?
Attachment leads to suffering. I find that statement to be very true.
It can also lead to joy and laughter. It isn't always one way. Things change.
When (if) you love someone, you become attached to having that person around.
Lose that person, either thru death or divorce or something else, and the attachment is what makes the suffering.
If no attachment then no suffering. Of course, one can not go thru life without feelings.
If a relative (mom or dad) pass away. Then we can feel sad and grieve.
But, we should not cling to our attachments which then can create more suffering.
Just got to be able to let it go and remain in the present moment. Though, not easy to do.

Buddhism is perfect for asking questions. Buddha never made anyone believe in blind faith.
You are suppose to ask questions and verify for yourself.
 
All sanghas seem to either want you to torture yourself or lie to you, so what's the point? I don't see why more people don't practice meditation alone and fully divorce it from hindu spirituality and buddhism (there's very little difference between the two...). I wanted to put this in a much shorter message but your programming clearly still doesn't %^&*ing work. It would have taken you much less time and effort to tell me what a TOS is...
TOS ... terms of service.
To use a forum, one must agree to the terms upon one needs to register to use the forum.

A sangha is a place where like minded or similar spiritual people gather to allow ourselves to grow.
Where are the lies or torture? We practice together to give each other encouragement.
It is a lot easier to go forward when we have a cheering section. LOL.

Hindu spirituality and Buddhism is quite different
But, if you don't know enough about it or are just looking for similarities then that is what you will find.

I am not here to argue. But, if you know more then I am willing to learn.

Chaz

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Re: east and west
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2021, 04:05:42 PM »
Buddhism is perfect for asking questions. Buddha never made anyone believe in blind faith.
You are suppose to ask questions and verify for yourself.

Life, taken as a whole, is perfect for asking questions.  I'd see it as a right.

If you someone were to choose to surrendder that, it's entirely on you them. 

To say Buddhism is perfect presumes that other traditons may not be and that may or may not be the case.  If fact it's arguable that Buddhism is "perfect".

To say that Buddhism encourages questioning and other traditions don't, is a little narrow minded.  That's to say that to believe that is bad is equally short-sighted.  The things is all faith traditons, Buddhism included, have a positive component of faith - complete trust in someone or something. The "complete" component, presupposes a level of blindness - belief in the absense of physical evidence.  I have many firends who practice their failth "blindly", and y'know what?  They're fine.  Their lives have been their verification.  What can you say?

« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 07:15:03 PM by Chaz »

Avisitor

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Re: east and west
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2021, 06:28:18 PM »
Life, taken as a whole, is perfect for asking questions.  I'd see it as a right.

If you choose to to surrendder that, it's entirely on you. 

To say that Buddhism encourages questioning and other traditions don't, is a little narrow minded.  That's to say that to believe that is bad is equally short-sighted.  The things is all faith traditons, Buddhism included, have a positive component of faith - complete trust in someone or something. The "complete" component, presupposes a level of blindness - belief in the absense of physical evidence.  I have many firends who practice their failth "blindly", and y'know what?  They're fine.  Their lives have been their verification.  What can you say?
Never said other traditions or religions don't encourage questioning. Only said that Buddhism is perfect for asking questions. Please do not read more into what I said. If I said the sky is blue doesn't mean it can not be gray also. One does not infer the other. As being perfect for asking questions that doesn't mean there is no component of faith in Buddhism. What you see is up to you. Your mind will complete the image. Of course people are fine with living with faith, people can live with many things. Good, bad or indifferent. If you ask me, "What can you say" then you are being short sighted.

Chaz

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Re: east and west
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2021, 07:06:17 PM »
Life, taken as a whole, is perfect for asking questions.  I'd see it as a right.

If you choose to to surrendder that, it's entirely on you. 

To say that Buddhism encourages questioning and other traditions don't, is a little narrow minded.  That's to say that to believe that is bad is equally short-sighted.  The things is all faith traditons, Buddhism included, have a positive component of faith - complete trust in someone or something. The "complete" component, presupposes a level of blindness - belief in the absense of physical evidence.  I have many firends who practice their failth "blindly", and y'know what?  They're fine.  Their lives have been their verification.  What can you say?
Never said other traditions or religions don't encourage questioning. Only said that Buddhism is perfect for asking questions. Please do not read more into what I said. If I said the sky is blue doesn't mean it can not be gray also. One does not infer the other. As being perfect for asking questions that doesn't mean there is no component of faith in Buddhism. What you see is up to you. Your mind will complete the image. Of course people are fine with living with faith, people can live with many things. Good, bad or indifferent. If you ask me, "What can you say" then you are being short sighted.

Well if you want to be that way about it ....... LOL.

You're taking my response personally, and you shouldn't.  I only used a personal  pronoun, you,  twice, and in the same sentence.  Just the same it was not meant to be directed at you, personally.  It was meant to be a generic you - apply to any reader, not you alone.  So, I could say, you misread my posting as well.  BUT, I suppose I could have worded that differently, so my bad.

Additionally you used the term "blind faith".  In the context of a forum like this, the term, in general use, is generally viewed as a negative - a Bad Thing.  In a Budddhist view there is really no such thing as "blind" faith.  There is only faith and that is a Good Thing.

Avisitor

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Re: east and west
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2021, 06:21:51 AM »
Well if you want to be that way about it ....... LOL.

You're taking my response personally, and you shouldn't.  I only used a personal  pronoun, you,  twice, and in the same sentence.  Just the same it was not meant to be directed at you, personally.  It was meant to be a generic you - apply to any reader, not you alone.  So, I could say, you misread my posting as well.  BUT, I suppose I could have worded that differently, so my bad.

Additionally you used the term "blind faith".  In the context of a forum like this, the term, in general use, is generally viewed as a negative - a Bad Thing.  In a Budddhist view there is really no such thing as "blind" faith.  There is only faith and that is a Good Thing.

Have had many people believe what ever they want and read into my words whatever they wished. Don't care.
But, that will not stop me from trying to correct the mistake. Just like my use of the words blind faith.
I said Buddhism never makes one believe in blind faith. And here blind faith is a negative term.
I am not saying that Buddhist have blind faith or use blind faith. So, the negative term is used in a positive way.
So, Buddhist view is there is no such thing as blind faith. I never said there was.

If I say that in Buddhist view is there is no such thing as self
Or there is nothing that goes on after the death of the skandhas. Well as far as the three truths.
1. Everything is impermanent and changing ... Annica
2. Impermanence leads to suffering .............. Dukkha
3. There is no self (unchanging) ................... Anatta
Question becomes, "No self. So, what is there that can have any faith at all??"

Anyway, it isn't the Buddhist view I speak of .. just stuff I picked up along the way.
As always, you can correct me when I am wrong. Nothing personal.

Chaz

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Re: east and west
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2021, 08:46:37 PM »

Have had many people believe what ever they want and read into my words whatever they wished. Don't care.
But, that will not stop me from trying to correct the mistake. Just like my use of the words blind faith.
I said Buddhism never makes one believe in blind faith. And here blind faith is a negative term.
I am not saying that Buddhist have blind faith or use blind faith. So, the negative term is used in a positive way.
So, Buddhist view is there is no such thing as blind faith. I never said there was.

I get that, but the way you put it leaves things open to say that all traditions other than Buddhism can or do.

Quote
If I say that in Buddhist view is there is no such thing as self
Or there is nothing that goes on after the death of the skandhas. Well as far as the three truths.
1. Everything is impermanent and changing ... Annica
2. Impermanence leads to suffering .............. Dukkha
3. There is no self (unchanging) ................... Anatta

Actually those are the Three Marks of Existence.


Quote
Question becomes, "No self. So, what is there that can have any faith at all??"

That hints of nihilism.  Better to say that "no self can be found".

Avisitor

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Re: east and west
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2021, 03:34:49 AM »
I get that, but the way you put it leaves things open to say that all traditions other than Buddhism can or do.
Other traditions or religions may or may not. I was not talking about those others.
Again, saying the sky is blue, it does not mean it can not be grey.
The reader is drawing his own conclusions base on his past experience.
But, will concede the point to you.

Quote
If I say that in Buddhist view is there is no such thing as self
Or there is nothing that goes on after the death of the skandhas. Well as far as the three truths.
1. Everything is impermanent and changing ... Annica
2. Impermanence leads to suffering .............. Dukkha
3. There is no self (unchanging) ................... Anatta

Actually those are the Three Marks of Existence.
Yes, they are called that too. A rose is a rose by any other name.
I am not a Buddhist. What I learned are picked up along the way.
Will concede point to you.

Quote
Question becomes, "No self. So, what is there that can have any faith at all??"
That hints of nihilism.  Better to say that "no self can be found".
No self. You look at it and find no self can be found.
Me having found no self, questions further what can have faith?
And, that is why I posed the question of what there is that can have any faith at all.
What you said and what I said are not the same.

Nihilism?? Do not know what that is.
But, you must know.
All three points are yours.

Note: Please do not take anything I say personally.
There is no intent to be rude or attack.
It is just my personality taking over the conversation.
Ego is sometimes a hard thing to keep in check.
Thanks.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 07:02:55 AM by Avisitor »

Chaz

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Re: east and west
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2021, 03:34:26 PM »
No self. You look at it and find no self can be found.
Me having found no self, questions further what can have faith?
And, that is why I posed the question of what there is that can have any faith at all.

Self may be an illusion, but that is only relative. Despite what you have intelectualized, you will cponue to behave as if all phenomena have a self. 

So what has faith?  The you/self that perpetuates despite what what you believe you know.


Nihilism?? Do not know what that is.
But, you must know.
All three points are yours.

Note: Please do not take anything I say personally.
There is no intent to be rude or attack.
It is just my personality taking over the conversation.
Ego is sometimes a hard thing to keep in check.
Thanks.
[/quote]

Avisitor

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Re: east and west
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2021, 07:41:23 PM »
Self may be an illusion, but that is only relative. Despite what you have intelectualized, you will cponue to behave as if all phenomena have a self. 

So what has faith?  The you/self that perpetuates despite what what you believe you know.

Don't know what "cponue" means.
What I believe I know is what I have learned along the way.
At first, it doesn't really make much sense. However, learn it and practice.
Learn the Dharma and practice. Soon, some of it sinks in and makes sense.

As to self, this is what I have learned or believe.
It may be true or it may be false. If you know better then please correct me.
The self is made of of aggregates. The body a composition of matter.
The matter, having formed senses, has an aggregate of sensations, perceptions.
The mind has perceptions and mental formations. It leads to awareness and consciousness.
With this combination of aggregates, a by product is the impression that there is a self.
That things outside of self are happening to the self. But, once death takes over,
the aggregates fall apart. There is no more self. Nothing that was made of aggregates remains
Only that which existed before will continue to exist.
Sort of like "what was your face before your parents were born?

MarasAndBuddhas

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Re: east and west
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2021, 09:12:58 AM »
Quote
i'm just curious if people from what's referred to the east and west really think in tremendously different ways. Ideas about this are a lot of the reason why Americans and Europeans turn to buddhism.

Overall this is kind of sensitive and problematic discussion, yet I do think it's worth having. In strict buddhism your not even really supposed to talk about other people, but you can have insights or study the way that people different from yourself think.

The east and west may contain a lot of differences between themselves, but I'm sure if you went there, and got to know the people from the east, you would find that they are not tremendously different from people "the west".

Quote
Buddhism is perfect for asking questions. Buddha never made anyone believe in blind faith.
You are suppose to ask questions and verify for yourself.

sure..buddhism is perfect for asking questions, but what makes buddhism in particular perfect for question-asking? Why am i "supposed to" ask questions about it?

Quote
Life, taken as a whole, is perfect for asking questions.  I'd see it as a right.

If you choose to to surrendder that, it's entirely on you.

To say that Buddhism encourages questioning and other traditions don't, is a little narrow minded.  That's to say that to believe that is bad is equally short-sighted.  The things is all faith traditons, Buddhism included, have a positive component of faith - complete trust in someone or something. The "complete" component, presupposes a level of blindness - belief in the absense of physical evidence.  I have many firends who practice their failth "blindly", and y'know what?  They're fine.  Their lives have been their verification.  What can you say?

-I don't think that "life is perfect for asking questions" if you are a cat, or if you are human and don't want to ask questions...or are very troubled by asking questions.

-asking questions is a RIGHT? So I am entitled to my questions, and if i am not entitled to my questions then i just shouldn't ask them?

-if you have a problem with me putting "redneck" in quotes out of a misinterpretation  of something that you said/thought, then i think it's equally troubling to put words in Avisitor's mouth. Not all religions/belief-systems/philosophies are the same. If i had a belief system with a commandment or precept which stated (i.e., "thou shalt not ask questions", or "the precept of non-skepticism") then clearly buddhism is "better" or "more perfect" for asking questions than my belief system.

Quote
Hindu spirituality and Buddhism is quite different
But, if you don't know enough about it or are just looking for similarities then that is what you will find.

actually, what i found from reading pali texts and talking to Buddhists is that The Buddha was basically looking to reform asceticism and replace it with a different system of constraints and assertions about "the nature of reality", but you are correct that not all hindu "spiritual" ideas are the same as the ideas espoused by The Buddha. I've always wanted to some traveling in the far eastern part of the earth but i don't know if i'm ever going to feel comfortable about doing that for all sorts of reasons.

Quote
Note: Please do not take anything I say personally.
There is no intent to be rude or attack.
It is just my personality taking over the conversation.
Ego is sometimes a hard thing to keep in check

-Huh, i don't really see how it's possible to not take "anything you say" personally, as you are a person, and i can't help but take everything in my life personally.

-What is this "ego" that you "need to keep in check"? I personally don't think an ego is anything but this image you have of yourself, and how you appear to others. Are you referring to Freud's ego?



When thoughts arise, then do all things arise. When thoughts vanish, then do all things vanish.

MarasAndBuddhas

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Re: east and west
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2021, 01:21:54 PM »
Quote
i'm just curious if people from what's referred to the east and west really think in tremendously different ways. Ideas about this are a lot of the reason why Americans and Europeans turn to buddhism.

Overall this is kind of sensitive and problematic discussion, yet I do think it's worth having. In strict buddhism your not even really supposed to talk about other people, but you can have insights or study the way that people different from yourself think.

The east and west may contain a lot of differences between themselves, but I'm sure if you went there, and got to know the people from the east, you would find that they are not tremendously different from "the westeners".

Quote
Buddhism is perfect for asking questions. Buddha never made anyone believe in blind faith.
You are suppose to ask questions and verify for yourself.

sure..buddhism is perfect for asking questions, but what makes buddhism in particular perfect for question-asking? Why am i "supposed to" ask questions about it?

Quote
Life, taken as a whole, is perfect for asking questions.  I'd see it as a right.

If you choose to to surrendder that, it's entirely on you.

To say that Buddhism encourages questioning and other traditions don't, is a little narrow minded.  That's to say that to believe that is bad is equally short-sighted.  The things is all faith traditons, Buddhism included, have a positive component of faith - complete trust in someone or something. The "complete" component, presupposes a level of blindness - belief in the absense of physical evidence.  I have many firends who practice their failth "blindly", and y'know what?  They're fine.  Their lives have been their verification.  What can you say?

-I don't think that "life is perfect for asking questions" if you are a cat, or if you are human and don't want to ask questions...or are very troubled by asking questions.

-asking questions is a RIGHT? So I am entitled to my questions, and if i am not entitled to my questions then i just shouldn't ask them?

-if you have a problem with me putting "redneck" in quotes out of a misinterpretation  of something that you said/thought, then i think it's equally troubling to put words in Avisitor's mouth. Not all religions/belief-systems/philosophies are the same. If i had a belief system with a commandment or precept which stated (i.e., "thou shalt not ask questions", or "the precept of non-skepticism") then clearly buddhism is "better" or "more perfect" for asking questions than my belief system.

Quote
Hindu spirituality and Buddhism is quite different
But, if you don't know enough about it or are just looking for similarities then that is what you will find.

actually, what i found from reading pali texts and talking to Buddhists is that The Buddha was basically looking to reform asceticism and replace it with a different system of constraints and assertions about "the nature of reality", but you are correct that not all hindu "spiritual" ideas are the same as the ideas espoused by The Buddha. I've always wanted to some traveling in the far eastern part of the earth but i don't know if i'm ever going to feel comfortable about doing that for all sorts of reasons.

Quote
Note: Please do not take anything I say personally.
There is no intent to be rude or attack.
It is just my personality taking over the conversation.
Ego is sometimes a hard thing to keep in check

-Huh, i don't really see how it's possible to not take "anything you say" personally, as you are a person, and i can't help but take everything in my life personally.

-What is this "ego" that you "need to keep in check"? I personally don't think an ego is anything but this image you have of yourself, and how you appear to others. Are you referring to Freud's ego?
When thoughts arise, then do all things arise. When thoughts vanish, then do all things vanish.

Chaz

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Re: east and west
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2021, 06:11:44 PM »
I've always wanted to some traveling in the far eastern part of the earth but i don't know if i'm ever going to feel comfortable about doing that for all sorts of reasons.

I would encourage you to do that.  There's a lot to be said for being on the ground with a different culture.

I've never been to India, but I have been to Egypt.  It was mainly a site-seeing trip, but it was impossible to not be exposed to the culture of the place and especially the religious aspects.  It gave me a fresh, positive perspective in a way that would have been impossible anywhere else.  It also served to sever some of my preconceived notions about the region and Islam.  It was a priceless experience, and one I'll never forget.

You should do it.

Chaz

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Re: east and west
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2021, 04:46:57 AM »

I see you like to be difficult and contrary. Have met lots of children like that.
And much fewer adults with such syndromes. But, take it however you like.
My meaning was to not get upset with anything I said. Cause I am not trying to be rude, difficult or contrary.


<Chaz  put's on his Mod Cap> Ok, so how about we try and be a little more carefull about choice of words, ok?

 

anything