Author Topic: east and west  (Read 1807 times)

Avisitor

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Re: east and west
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2021, 03:45:47 PM »

I see you like to be difficult and contrary. But, take it however you like.
My meaning was to not get upset with anything I said. Cause I am not trying to be rude, difficult or contrary.

<Chaz  put's on his Mod Cap> Ok, so how about we try and be a little more carefull about choice of words, ok?
And to think this was about a note to not take what I say as being rude or an attack????

Chaz

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Re: east and west
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2021, 05:24:05 PM »

I see you like to be difficult and contrary. But, take it however you like.
My meaning was to not get upset with anything I said. Cause I am not trying to be rude, difficult or contrary.

<Chaz  put's on his Mod Cap> Ok, so how about we try and be a little more carefull about choice of words, ok?
And to think this was about a note to not take what I say as being rude or an attack????

Yes, but it's the language that occurred earlier in your post. Your choice of words' and their usage would upset just about anyone it was directed at, and your closing statement about not trying to be rude, etc, would be lost.  That's all.

On a personal level I adhere to the first and second of Clover's Rules of Social Media:

1.)  Never take anything said to or about you, personally
2.)  If something said to or about you, is meant to be taken personally, Refer to rule 1

Not everyone adheres to these rules.

MarasAndBuddhas

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Re: east and west
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2021, 12:18:33 AM »

I see you like to be difficult and contrary. But, take it however you like.
My meaning was to not get upset with anything I said. Cause I am not trying to be rude, difficult or contrary.
 ;D ;D ;D ;D
[/quote]

LOL, people can be so apologetic when theirs an impeding fear of DOOM and FIRE
When thoughts arise, then do all things arise. When thoughts vanish, then do all things vanish.

Avisitor

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Re: east and west
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2021, 12:51:54 AM »
Yeah, have seen those who put out compliments only to be truly insulting.
Sometimes hard to see the real meaning without the actual words being heard.

I see you like to be difficult and contrary. But, take it however you like.
My meaning was to not get upset with anything I said. Cause I am not trying to be rude, difficult or contrary.
 ;D ;D ;D ;D

LOL, people can be so apologetic when theirs an impeding fear of DOOM and FIRE
Yeah, and the cycle continues on.
And why would any body be apologetic if not for their fear of impending DOOM and FIRE.
Have seen video of police kick a guy in a holding cell. This is while the guy is handcuff and not resisting.
Charges were brought up against the officer. And in court, he apologized so tearfully.
What good were those apologies to the guy in the holding cell?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2021, 06:12:37 PM by Avisitor »

Chaz

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Re: east and west
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2021, 10:19:24 PM »
Yeah, have seen those who put out compliments only to be truly insulting.
Sometimes hard to see the real meaning without the actual words being heard.

I see you like to be difficult and contrary. But, take it however you like.
My meaning was to not get upset with anything I said. Cause I am not trying to be rude, difficult or contrary.
 ;D ;D ;D ;D

LOL, people can be so apologetic when theirs an impeding fear of DOOM and FIRE
Yeah, and the cycle continues on.
And why would any body be apologetic if not for their fear of impending DOOM and FIRE.
Have seen video of police kick a guy in a holding cell. This is while the guy is handcuff and not resisting.
Charges were brought up against the officer. And in court, he apologized so tearfully.
What good were those apologies to the guy in the holding cell?

OK, I don't want to see this degrade into a discussion on right speech.  I think I've been abundantly clear already, but recap,  while perhaps not quite unacceptable, calling someone child-like is pushing the boundaries pretty close to the edge and I encourage all of us to not go there, even if it isn't our intent to insult or demean. 

I would like that to be the last word on that and I would request we get back to the east/west discussion we were having.  If not, I'll just lock the thread.

Ok?

Avisitor

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Re: east and west
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2021, 05:32:56 AM »
I see you like to be difficult and contrary. But, take it however you like.
My meaning was to not get upset with anything I said. Cause I am not trying to be rude, difficult or contrary.
 ;D ;D ;D ;D

LOL, people can be so apologetic when theirs an impeding fear of DOOM and FIRE
Yeah, and the cycle continues on.
And why would any body be apologetic if not for their fear of impending DOOM and FIRE.
Have seen video of police kick a guy in a holding cell. This is while the guy is handcuff and not resisting.
Charges were brought up against the officer. And in court, he apologized so tearfully.
What good were those apologies to the guy in the holding cell?

OK, I don't want to see this degrade into a discussion on right speech.  I think I've been abundantly clear already, but recap,  while perhaps not quite unacceptable, calling someone child-like is pushing the boundaries pretty close to the edge and I encourage all of us to not go there, even if it isn't our intent to insult or demean. 

I would like that to be the last word on that and I would request we get back to the east/west discussion we were having.  If not, I'll just lock the thread.

Ok?
[/quote]
Did you bother to read it? Those were removed if you did not notice????
There was no calling anyone child like (connotations are good) or childish (connotations are not good).
There was no insults or anything of the sort. Hmm, time to leave.

Chaz

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Re: east and west
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2021, 06:33:58 AM »
Hmm, time to leave.

Well, I hate to see that, but it's your decision.  Good Luck.

MarasAndBuddhas

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Re: east and west
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2021, 01:19:51 AM »
i'm sorry that my thread degraded into insults...i'm sorry that i was sarcastic and insulting, but can you tell me about a particular form of right and wrong speech? I feel like i constantly have an issue with this...but yes, i am sorry that i cause suffering and %^&* with people at times. I've been trying to meditate a whole lot but something just seems to always get in the way.

This is the danger zone, is this then a dangerous place to talk about things? Please answer my questions.
When thoughts arise, then do all things arise. When thoughts vanish, then do all things vanish.

Chaz

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Re: east and west
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2021, 03:05:30 AM »
i'm sorry that my thread degraded into insults...i'm sorry that i was sarcastic and insulting, but can you tell me about a particular form of right and wrong speech? I feel like i constantly have an issue with this...but yes, i am sorry that i cause suffering and %^&* with people at times. I've been trying to meditate a whole lot but something just seems to always get in the way.

This is the danger zone, is this then a dangerous place to talk about things? Please answer my questions.
Sure

The DZ is meant to discuss hot-button or controversial topics.  It's not meant to be a forum where you can say what you want to someone.  Hard- and fast rules are difficiult, but a little common sense can go a long way.  Being snarky, mean-spirited, abusive, insulting and so on, simply won't fly.  Wheaton's Rule:  "Don't be a dick", is a pretty good one to follow in social media.  You can go a long way with that.  You can be strong and assertive in your opinions, and still not be a dick about it.  Be careful with what you post.  Think about it.  Don't be in a hurry to post it.

If people get out of line, that's my problem.  Someone's pushing your buttons, step away.  Meditate on Clover's Rules 1 & 2..  It's also valuable to contemplate Rule 5: "Harden the !@#$ up".

I'm not real big on Right vs Wrong Speech.  In terms ofr the N8FP that's really not what it's about.

The DZ is for hot topics, not hot language.

And don't worry about your practice.  Just keep practicing.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 09:17:50 PM by Chaz »

Chaz

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Re: east and west
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2021, 10:53:35 PM »
The thing for me, was, that we were dealing with something that was posted.  A lot of people would have taken offense at it.  The fact that Avisitor sorta apologized, saying it wasn't meant to be rude, confrontational, etc.  Indicated that he knew it could be taken that way.  Rather than write, and then apologize for it, doesn't make everything ok, at least in my mind.  ITAM, if you have to apologize for something right after writing, it's best to un-write it and find another way to express yourself.

There's an old custom with forums to advise people to sit on a post overnight before submitting it.  If there's some heat in what's been written, a good night's sleep can temper those feelings. 

MarasAndBuddhas

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Re: east and west
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2021, 03:38:26 PM »
The thing for me, was, that we were dealing with something that was posted.  A lot of people would have taken offense at it.  The fact that Avisitor sorta apologized, saying it wasn't meant to be rude, confrontational, etc.  Indicated that he knew it could be taken that way.  Rather than write, and then apologize for it, doesn't make everything ok, at least in my mind.  ITAM, if you have to apologize for something right after writing, it's best to un-write it and find another way to express yourself.

There's an old custom with forums to advise people to sit on a post overnight before submitting it.  If there's some heat in what's been written, a good night's sleep can temper those feelings.

I agree with you completely: i took a break because I felt ashamed of my aggression/abuse of a moderator who i've known for a long time and has never before treated me as a problem.

Before i further back up that behavior with worthless excuses (as i tend to remember what i do very well, as I'm also good at lieing and stealing if i stay focused)...I just want to say:

The "duality of the western world" simply doesn't exist. What the more skilled mindfulness practitioners/buddhists mean by this is that our current world is dominated by arrogant intellectualism, or at least the professional aspect of it is. "We confuse reality with our thoughts", as a great therapist once told me.

The talk about "east and west" came from an issue i was having on facebook: Even though i thought the murder of George Floyd was really sad, it was really upsetting to me that every post became political demagoguery in a heart beat. Yes, it's sad: people believe in the moral hyperbole of journalism. I was fine with argueing with people about the extent that we should all just wash our hands and stay inside all the time (telling someone to "stay home" on facebook)...but somebody insinuated i was "racist" because i joked that "maybe i'll vote for trump since steve bannon misspent the money for the border wall".

I don't vote because i just don't trust politicians to do what they say they're going to do, the murder of George Floyd had nothing to do with "donald trump's racism": it had more to with the fact that:

-the police enforce this stupid thing called "the law", and the law authorizes the police to break the law. Not all cops are "evil" white supremacists. I'm almost as "white" as an albino and cops have screwed with me because i don't always act so predictably. I typically like going for walks, and i've gotten a lot of !@#$ from people for just walking around. With an exception of times i've committed traffic violations, cops have just bothered me because someone called the police on me for walking. Some lady accused me of robbing her house also because I was just walking around.

-Black people still suffer from being enslaved in this country [founded on white supremacy and Christianity], and the cops can only really go after poor people.

-Poverty always makes crime more tempting, hence the reason that "the ghetto" is associated with drug dealers and prisoners.

-The police make split second judgments in order to control what they see as a threat. If a "dangerous black person" is seen as a threat, then that black person is going to die.

The real reason I've been thinking about traveling to China for a while to:

-to learn different styles of chinese so that I can better understand the original taoist texts, and perhaps make a new translation. I don't really care much about "The Buddha" or some monk who "has fewer desires", or occupies some position of zen authority. I think Buddha's wisdom puts most of the documents that universities churn out to shame, but i consider myself more of a taoist, and if i ever feel comfortable traveling anywhere ever again as a vulnerable tourist with money, I WILL. However, i have no pretensions about Chinese people being anymore enlightened, or there being any unique spiritual wisdom in "the east".

-travel! It's fun to see different places, and you learn more through traveling than being stuck in a set of routines. However, as an adult i have found that i just can't tolerate "partying" anymore, nor can I tolerate the attitudes of those who do it.

Yes zen buddhists and partiers: sleeping is important for your brain functioning even if it isn't always so important.

Also, chaz: i can't compartmentalize so well as just to avoid politics altogether. The political is personal, and you can't be neutral on a moving train.

When thoughts arise, then do all things arise. When thoughts vanish, then do all things vanish.

Gibbon

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Re: east and west
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2021, 05:32:04 PM »
I personally think that arguing with people on Facebook is pointless.  It reminds me of the old cartoon -- a man unable to go to bed because someone is WRONG on the internet! 

The advantage of Free Sangha is that everyone, at least in theory, is trying to follow the right speech guidelines. -- not because of moderation but because this is an integral part of Dharma practice.  Of course, we fail at this all the time, because we are human, but the thing to do is pick oneself up and try again.   

If traveling to the Far East, my pick would be Taiwan instead of mainland China.  It has preserved more traditional attitudes to culture and religion.  Be forewarned that, if you want to learn enough Chinese for religious practice, it would take a major effort on your part.

MarasAndBuddhas

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Re: east and west
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2021, 01:21:54 AM »
I personally think that arguing with people on Facebook is pointless.  It reminds me of the old cartoon -- a man unable to go to bed because someone is WRONG on the internet! 

The advantage of Free Sangha is that everyone, at least in theory, is trying to follow the right speech guidelines. -- not because of moderation but because this is an integral part of Dharma practice.  Of course, we fail at this all the time, because we are human, but the thing to do is pick oneself up and try again.   

If traveling to the Far East, my pick would be Taiwan instead of mainland China.  It has preserved more traditional attitudes to culture and religion.  Be forewarned that, if you want to learn enough Chinese for religious practice, it would take a major effort on your part.

yeah, there are a couple of different forms of chinese, and in order to translate the original "Tao Te Ching" I would need to also learn caligraphy, none of this is easy but i could make a stab at it with all the right preparations.
When thoughts arise, then do all things arise. When thoughts vanish, then do all things vanish.